I'm doing a small research project regarding laser use on a firearm. For the longest time, I have not been one to endorse the use of a laser. However, as technology advances and the design of lasers have been adapting to more ergonomics desires, I may be changing my mind. OffroadAZ recently expressed interest in getting a laser for his firearm, so this brought up an interesting opportunity to do a bit of research.

My focus is on the products made by Crimson Trace. Crimson Trace makes some of the most compact and ergonomic lasers on the market. They offer an extensive inventory to cover most of the popular handguns and several vertical grips for long guns.

So, I open this up to our board members. I am offering a ONE TIME only opportunity to purchase a Crimson Trace laser for a substantial discount. To take advantage of this opportunity, there are some ground rules.

1. This is open to any HG4x4 member with at least 20 posts on the forum board.
2. You may purchase only ONE laser at this special price.
3. Orders must be received by September 30, 2012. You can PM me for a price quote and payment instruction.
4. If at the time of order, your particular grip is not available, there will be no backorders. A refund will be issued.
5. Please don't share the prices with anyone outside the board and DO NOT post the prices!
6. Once received. Install it and document your experience on this thread within 30 days. I would like to see reviews/ write-ups on topics like: Ease of installation, Accuracy, Fitment with existing holsters, Ergonomics, and Final Thoughts.
7. Post a picture of your firearm with the laser installed.

Simple! Let's share your experience and save some money on a great product from one of the best laser manufacturers on the market.

Please visit www.CrimsonTrace.com to see the full assortment of firearm laser products.

looking forward to testing mine out

Awesome offer. Thanks James!

Good stuff :)

That is a really cool offer. Thanks.

Anything that fits mine is out of stock. Looks like I need to buy another gun 8)

One thing not cool about a lazor it also traces you back to the shooter

Yeah, that was MY biggest reservation. However, I am now open to learning/teaching an advanced method for using lasers.

fatbob309 wrote:Anything that fits mine is out of stock. Looks like I need to buy another gun 8)

I would place the order anyways. Being my order is directly from the MFG, they are constantly producing product.

All PMs replied.

Any more takers? You'll save almost $100 off retail on lasergrips.

Surprisingly, there was not many takers on this deal. Too bad. Offroadaz was the only one so it kinda makes my research a little difficult. I mean, you really can't get an "average" with only one test subject. :) I decided to change it up a bit. We can still report on the ease of installation, accuracy, ease of use, and ergonomics on the one Crimson Trace lasergrip. But to do a comparison, I decided to bring in another brand. This brand had to be an A+ company that can stand up Crimson Trace and put up a good fight. Only one company comes to mind, and that's LaserLyte.

I will start this research with LaserLyte.


LaserLyte is a company founded in Prescott, AZ in 1996 by Larry Moore. The company started out as a publishing company that specialized in survival tactics and weapons. They later published several larger magazines like S.W.A.T and Arizona Hunter and Angler. In 1987, they ventured into the firearm accessory business in 1987 by creating Tac Star Industries. Their innovative products are still sold today and I doubt there are many gun enthusiasts that don't know Tac Star Industries. Along with being the first to create a laser bore sighting tool, they merged with Lyte Optronics to form LaserLyte. In 1997 Mr. Moore sold off Tac Star, but purchased back LaserLyte in 2001. Today, LaserLyte makes a whole line of laser products, and not just gun grips. They have laser targeting tools, bore sighters, and firearm mounted lasers. They've been creating even more innovative products by partnering with some great firearm companies to build lasers that are the sleekest designs and reducing their R&D cost. Most recently, they've partnered with Smith & Wesson and are producing a laser for their M&P Shield. S&W supplied their CAD drawings to LaserLyte so they can make a laser that is fitted perfectly to the gun. Less R&D cost = a product that is super affordable.


Being a southpaw, finding a set of Crimson Trace to work with me is darn near impossible. The lasers are generally on the right side of the gun. When I grab the pistol with my left hand and wrap my right hand around, the thumb of my right hand blocks the laser beam.

I noticed that LaserLyte had created a thin profile laser that fit one of my CCW guns. My Kel-Tec PF9. Being a smaller and thinner gun, it looks like it would clear my right hand (or be pretty close). Since LaserLyte is known for competitive prices I decided to buy on (at retail) and use it as a comparison to the Crimson Trace. The MSRP on this laser #CK-AMF9 is $109.00. I was able to find one for $77 delivered to my door at InventoryCheap.Com. Not a bad deal, considering this laser is less than 1/2 the cost of the Crimson Trace Laserguard version for the same gun. MSRP is $219.00

Another bonus is that I can also reuse all of my pocket holsters with this LaserLyte.


LaserLyte CK-AMF9


Crimson Trace LaserGuard #LG-435


The installation is pretty simple. LaserLyte provides great instruction AND they just happen to have an installation video on my exact laser. It also goes through the functions of the laser.
The video is on a Ruger LC9. That is the same as the Kel-Tec PF9.










My first reaction was, "Wow. Thin and light!". Install was as the video shows. There was no torque specs other than "don't over tighten". To me, that means crank until you fear it will break. :) Even when I thought it was too much and the screws got REALLY tight, there was still some movement on the laser. Maybe there was too much loc-tite on the screws. I cranked it until it stopped moving.

The laser came with batteries pre-installed. They also included 4 spare batteries. Nice touch. Not as nice as "Free batteries for Life" like Crimson Trace, but I saved $100 so I can live with that.

There is very little protrusion on the laser. Even though the on/off button was made for right hand shooters (using the trigger finger), I found it comfortable to use my right thumb when I wrapped my hand around the grip. The initial install, ergonomics, and appearance are all good. I also like the fact that the laser has the option of a solid red dot or a fast pulsating dot. That make for a quicker acquisition and saves battery life. It also has an automatic OFF to conserve batteries, too.

Off to the range!

This morning offroadaz and I made it to Ben Averys outdoor shooting range. When we tested my laser at 20 feet, we could not see it. The sun was shining directly on our target and washed out the red dot. It was a good 1/2 hour later before we decided to bring the target up closer to 15 feet. That was enough for me to catch a small glimpse of the red dot. Chris' Crimson Trace did not have this issue. Although it was washed out a bit, you can still see his dot on the target.

NOTE: Both Crimson Trace and LaserLyte list their laser as being a 5mw laser. I can only conclude that since this Crimson Trace takes two CR2032 3V Lithium batteries and the LaserLyte takes four #777 1.55V Silver Oxide batteries, the crimson trace may be more powerful, even though both total around 6V of power.

Prior to visiting the range, I did an initial sight-in at home. Basically, you point at a target 21 feet in front of you, line up your iron sights, and dial in the laser dot to sit just on top of the front sight. Yet, when I went to shoot it at 20 feet, the impact point was 8 inches high? That's odd. I adjusted as much as I could, to the point where the adjustment screw almost fell out. I could not get the laser to match up with the actual bullet impact. I tried to reverse my adjustments and the laser became unresponsive to any adjustments. Ug... time to RMA the sucker.

So, my test was unsuccessful. I will have to redo the test when I get the replacement laser.

There is not a lot of history noted online about Crimson Trace. What we do know is that they've been making laser products for the past 17 years and their sales stretch from Law Enforcement to the Military. They spend big bucks on R&D and produce some fine products that have a reputation for quality and performance. They command a higher pricetag for their products, but it's not without merit. Their products are built with great precision and the fit and function is second to none.

Here's the information Crimson Trace provides on their "About Us" page.

Over the past 17 years, Crimson Trace Corporation has shipped nearly a million sets of Lasergrips® and Laserguard® units to responsible gun owners throughout the world. Our diverse and loyal customer base includes: the US military, federal/state/local law enforcement agencies, private security officers, concealed carry aficionados, defense-minded citizens, target shooters and sportsmen.

As the undisputed industry leader in laser sighting products for handguns and rail-equipped long guns, Crimson Trace places a passionate focus on our products – because the lives of our customers may depend on it.

We engineer each and every Crimson Trace product to be the finest laser sight money can buy in terms of quality, durability and reliability. In addition, we pride ourselves on providing customer service and product support that shines as brightly as the lasers we package and sell.




offroadaz ordered a Crimson Trace LG-446 for his subcompact Springfield XD. Actually, this grip seems to fit all the double stack XDs except the M series.

Installation was pretty easy. The lasergrip is machined to be exact fitting to the host gun. The laser is powered by two CR2032 button batteries. One is inserted into each inner side of the grip. The lasergrip slips on super snug and a "wedge" is pinned into place that locks the lasergrip to the frame. There is no disassembly of the host gun during the installation process. A noted benefit is the "wedge". It's location is above the backstrap and just behind the slide. It forms a beavertail and really aids in lining up the hand and makes shooting this sub-compact a more comfortable task.

Off to the range!

At the range we set the target at 20 feet. The Crimson Trace laser was visible, though it was a bit washed out by the sun. This was expected as the sun was up high and shining directly on the target. Still, it was visible. It was even more visible when we moved the target to the 15 foot mark. Adjustments were quick and simple. We lined up the iron sights and dialed the laser to sit on top of the front sight. We then shot several rounds and fine tuned it.

Over the course of the day we shot the gun several times. Each time it seem to hold zero and I was even able to shoot a 3-shot group that could have been covered with a quarter.

Although this grip was twice the price as the 2nd test subject (LaserLyte), the quality shines as bright as their laser. Is it worth the extra cash? I think so. However, I may change my mind when the LaserLyte laser comes back from RMA. It broke during out initial testing. It may be user error, but I think there were issue with the vertical adjustments to begin with.

I'm sure Chris will have his own input but these are my findings and opinions.

Update: Thinking my LaserLyte laser was busted, I got all butt-hurt and decided to take it apart. Before I did this I decided to try one more time to align the laser. I dialed both the windage and elevation to the lowest settings, which should place the dot high/right on the target.

This time I mounted the gun on my table vice, hung up a target and aimed the iron sights dead center on the bullseye and locked it down.

To my relief, the laser was only 5" highbut 16" to the right. Crossing my fingers and praying I have enough horizontal adjustment I started to dial it in. Whoa! The laser didn't track to the left. Instead it tracked diagonally left/down! The vertical adjustment tracked right/up! It would seem that because of the small physical size of this laser, they had to mount it at a 45 degree angle.

There was plenty of adjustment to get the dot to match up with my iron sights and the laser is now lined up. If Sunday turns out to be a nice day I will head back out and test fire this sucker and offer a final opinion.

Alright, heres my 30 second review of the Crimson Trace laser on my XD9 sub-compact

Pros:
Easy install

Still fits in holster and doesnt add bulk

Visible in direct sunlight at 20ft but hard to pick up the dot

Cons:
Im used to shooting with one eye closed, doing this its really hard to see the dot from the laser on target

My index finger usually sits on the side of the rail when I am aiming and moves to the trigger to shoot, because of the location of the laser, my index finger blocks its path. I have get used to placing my finger a little lower, but still off the trigger.

-----------------
James summed it up when he said to me the laser doesn't replace your traditional sighting method, its just an enhancement. For point hip shooting the red dot will be helpful, but for traditional site shooting, I hardly noticed it.

I think that having the laser pointing on a bad guy will also add some psychological advantage for me. They will know without a doubt where I am aiming and might make them think twice before forcing me to pull the trigger.

Ill get some pics up a bit later as well

I see it as, if you can see your iron sights then that's what you can use. You shouldn't be target shooting with a laser anyways. :)

I can see the laser being a real benefit for point shooting and tracking targets faster. Still, I would not rely on it as a primary sight system.

The intimidation factor is cool. As stupid as it seems people actually think the bullet follows the laser like a train on a track. Lol.

I may get a rail version for my suppressed 22LR gun. My suppressor blocks the iron sights. :mad:

Hey, I remember you telling me about this a few weeks ago but looks like I'm too late. I wouldn't mind trying a Crimson on my Sig P238 I bought a couple of weeks ago. I like how the Crimson activates by just gripping the gun rather than trying to locate a small button. The Sig laser has a small button near the front you have to press (like the S&W Bodyguard and most others)

PM me and I will see what I can do about getting you one.

Last week I was unable to finish my review of the LaserLyte laser for the Kel-Tec PF9 / Ruger LC9. I thought I had a defective laser, but it turned out to be user error.

1. I did not install the laser tight enough onto the gun. There was a bit of movement. The instruction states "not" to over tighten. I was overly cautious.
2. The laser's adjustments were NOT typical. Most adjustments on optics and lasers would have the windage knob tracking the center left/right and the elevation knob tracking the center up/down. This was not the case with this laser. The windage tracked down/left and the elevation tracked up/right. I guess the package is so small that they had to mount the sucker at an angle.

In any case, I got the laser adjusted to float just above the iron sights and made my way out to the desert. Here's my findings.

I took several shots at the 5-ft, 10-ft, and 15-ft mark. Again, the day was sunny and the laser dot was not very visible past 15-ft. Each shot was taken standing up with no support other than a traditional two-hand grip.

At 10-ft the laser opened up a bit. Point of aim was the center black dot inside the black diamond. My 4-shot group opened up a lot. Part of this I fault myself. I didn't feel like I had a comfortable grip on the gun. Still, 2.5" isn't bad for a bouncing laser.



I adjusted my grip and moved closer. At 5-ft, the laser grouped well but was 1" high and 1" to the left. This can be adjusted out. In the pic, I was aiming at the cross-hairs of the logo. That ragged hole was also 4 shots.



At 15-ft I took a shot at a grease spot. The red laser dot showed up well on this dark spot. So well in fact, I unloaded a full 7 rounds on it. The spread was about 4-inches. 2-inches if you don't count the flyer at the very bottom edge of the target. :)



Feeling pretty confident that the laser was holding up well and had a fair amount of accuracy, I set up a new target at 10-feet. I drew the gun from my CCW holster and fired from the hip, all seven rounds in about 4 seconds. Point of aim was the center of the white circle. The first five shots held well but started to drift low and right. Cause of this is the recoil affect and not having the gun fully supported. This group is 5.5". 5.5" may seem big, but speaking purely on a tactical shooting standpoint, it is acceptable. An 8" or less group is a perfect size for shooting at center mass (a.k.a. the kill box).



Overall, I am very happy with this laser. It's an inexpensive laser that is tiny and appears to be very accurate.

When comparing it to the Crimson Trace I seen that Crimson Trace has an obvious advantage. Although the crimson trace laser is mounted on the front rail, it still has a grip actuator. The laser turns on when you grip the gun. Bonus. In a fight situation, if I only had one hand, there is no way to turn on my laser and fire quickly. For me, that's OK. I am confident in my ability to point shoot. For others, this may be a deal breaker for LaserLyte.

The Crimson Trace also has a much brighter laser. This is good if you're using it during the daytime, but why would you? Lasers should be an alternative to the iron sight, only when the iron sights are not available.

LaserLyte has Crimson Trace beat on pricing. However, with the Crimson Trace's feature rich product, you are getting something for your money. Lifetime batteries is gotta be worth something! :)

I leave it up to you readers to draw your own conclusions. Thanks for reading.

Wow you are the gun guru my friend,alot of things surely have changed since my time in the military with my m24-001 sniper rifle